Kyra Rose – host

Welcome to In Conversation with Writers, the podcast where we dive into the minds of writers and explore their ideas and processes. Our guest today is writer John Hartley, who is joining us today to discuss his poem, 'I Remember'.

John Hartley – writer

I remember rows of paint peeled tinderbox homes, paper thin walls, wooden floors, and a kerosene fridge. Long wooden tables that stretch forever with church like chairs, black and stained, where I sat straining to reach my dinner.

I remember communal washrooms, wire fences, electrical transformers, and old dirt roads, and two Dutch friends. I remember open fields, two swings and a roundabout, a snow-white horse roped in a grass filled paddock and how I rode that horse without climbing on its back.

I remember farewells, the moving in a freshly laid cement path leading all the way to a newly built war service home. Mum, Dad, Granny and Grandad, my brothers and sisters. Photos on the doorstep, and the metal outline of a Mexican seated beneath a palm tree in perpetual siesta, living lazily on our front door screen.

I remember the black tarred roads in our neighbourhood that would fill the constant weight of my shoeless feet, and how my feet would blister on melting summer days, and how my blue 24-inch Melvin Star with back brakes would leave skid marks on its surface for days. I remember it was the first road that always led me home and it came to be the road I walked away on and left behind.

[End of transcript]

Kyra Rose – host

John, welcome. Thank you for that beautiful reading and thank you for joining us today.

So, the poem starts with a focus on your childhood memories and experiences. We were hoping that you might be able to start by sharing with us a little bit about yourself, a little bit about your Culture, where you grew up, and perhaps a memory that stands out from your childhood.

John Hartley – writer

Uh, well, my name is, uh, John Hartley. I'm a Woiwoi Alangi Bama or First Nations person. My, uh, traditional homelands are, uh, are in the Mossman, Port Douglas region of Far North Queensland where I currently live and, uh, uh, I am the current chairperson for the Kubirriwarra Yalanji Aboriginal Corporation. I was born in Kogarah Hospital, New South Wales, some 3,000 miles away from my, uh, mother country, homeland.

My first memory takes me back to a place that they used to refer to as Herne Bay, uh, which later became renamed as Naawi in Sydney. Uh, my first memory of living there, they, uh, uh, were housing people in what were former, uh, American soldier accommodation and they were like a community, um, houses, uh, shared community, um, washrooms and, and toilets, uh, and things like that.

So, uh, a lot of my time was spent in that area and then, uh, we moved out to the, uh, a suburb in Sydney. I think, um, five years old I would think and, uh, where I, um, where I grew and got to know the, know the neighbourhood and the surrounding areas and went to school there, uh, uh, for some years, a public school, uh, in the local area.

I left, uh, school quite early and began travelling around the country. Um, a fond memory I still hold was the first time that I came here to Mossman, to my mother's country, to meet, uh, my grandfather and grandmother, uh, and our family relations, learning, uh, to swim in the Mossman Gorge. Um, yeah, they're good memories and, um, uh, I also have, um, fond memories, um, of living in Sydney.

My mother would, uh, take us, I think at that time, uh, a three-quarter hour journey into, uh, the city by train, uh, to Circular Quay, uh, where we would, um, jump on a ferry and head to Balmain where my father's mother and father were living. So my, I guess my fond memories, early fond memories centre around those, those two, and meeting family.

Kyra

I imagine storytelling has been quite a large part of your life.  Um,

John

Mm-hmm.

Kyra

So, what's the role of storytelling been? And for you, both as somebody who gets to listen to those stories, but also for you in the act of being the storyteller.

John

Um, that's a, an interesting question. I really don't consider myself a, uh, a storyteller.

Um, but I do have a lot of stories, uh, from my earliest years. Uh, my earliest years I, uh, was spent under the kitchen table sitting, uh, not relegated there, uh, and listening to, uh, my father, my mother. And in the early years, um, it was quite a political time, uh, when I was growing up. My father was, was very active in the Waterside Workers Federation and, uh, we would host a lot of my mother's family. Uh, Aboriginal, uh, activists who would also be calling through Sydney, uh, would come and stay with us.

So, a lot of my early years was, uh, was immersed in those kinds of stories and, uh, stories and, um, experiences of those people gathered around the house at any particular time. And it, it led me later on to go around to a lot of the, uh, older people, uh, waterside workers, um, Aboriginal peoples, and I used to have a little voice recorder and I would go around and have a, have a good yarn with them.

So, and I think, um, the importance of st, of story is, uh, is vital, I think. And for, for us, for Aboriginal people, of course, um, the whole continent is full of many, many stories, you know? So, um, I think stories, um, I guess give us a sense of the world, make some sense of the world. But I think those, um, stories that have always engaged me is, um, those stories of, of, of humanity, you know, and becoming human beings, I guess.

Kyra

Mm.

John

Mm. So, and I think, um, that's always been central, uh, to me. And I guess it's, for me in the early days was trying to come to terms, uh, you know, with the early passing of my father ... my grandparents and what have you all happened in quick succession. And just to hear, uh, those stories of them, you know, that, uh, were still alive in people.

Um, I don't think that stories are something that sits, um, dormant and quiet. You know, with, within us once it's reached our ear or once it sits in our ear. I think it's something that, um... I think stories really, well, for me anyway, I can't talk for anyone else, um, make a little bit of sense in the world, right? Yeah.

Kyra

Absolutely. And I think what, what you're saying there about being able to, like, while ever we still tell stories about other people and about things, they, they remain a part of us and a part of the world in which we're still living and so on. I think that's, that's a really, it's a really beautiful way of seeing stories and the power of story.

John

You know, a story once begun never ends ... unless,

Kyra

Mm.

John

Unless, um, the last person has gone away, right? So, my ideas of collecting those stories were so that, um, I would take on those memories and, and then pass them on. I think it's vitally important that, um, uh, the younger people and future generations, um, hear those stories.

Kyra

So, you're the guardian of those stories now, the caretaker, ready to keep them passing through.

John

Well, um, maybe I'm a holder of some of those stories.

Kyra

Yeah.

John

Um, but I think the guardians, uh, the guardianship belongs to, to all of us, I think.

[End of transcript]

Kyra Rose – host

With 'I Remember', what inspired you? Because that's, that's very much your stories as well.

What inspired you to write the poem and then to deliver it at the Men's Talking Circle?

John Hartley – writer

Okay. Uh, he he he, hit a bell with a pebble. Um, uh, but, um, look, um, I, I, I think it is about oppressed people, um, people having not such a good time, a hard time, and a ...

Kyra

Mm ...

John

and, and trying times. We're often told, particularly, uh, First Nations people, uh, you know, to forget it, to get over it, to move on.

But I think be it personally or collectively, it is really about remembering. And, um, remembering does not take you to a point of- of blame or guilt, but opens us up to, uh, more profound understandings of self or, uh, our humanity, you know, our collective, um, well, our collective humanity really. And why I- I wrote that, I- I lived, um, I guess, um, a troubled life earlier on and, um, I was always, um, not always, but you know, I- I've spent time in institutions and- and things like that.

And, um, you know, because we- we start to believe that, um, we have to forget and we just gotta buckle up- and get on with things, right?

Kyra

Mm.

John

But, um, but as I started to, um, remember things, um, I started to release those, um, traumas if you like, um, or memories that weren't so wholesome or good, you know? And so, um, when I had the opportunity, um, to, to join a- an Aboriginal men's group, I'd already come to the, an understanding in myself anyway that it was about, more so about remembering those things.

And, um, not, not easy work for, for some of us. Um, but remembering those things and finding, uh, the point at which perhaps shifted our, our view of the world, um, and those around us, and not always positively ...

Kyra

Mm ...

John

often, uh, negatively. And, a and looking at that, and finding from where that springs, you know? So that's I guess, um, in the poem where I, I'm just sort of, you know, going on about, um, the idea of, or the construction of, of race and the idea of, uh, stereotypes and, and, uh, things like that, I guess, um, sort of, uh, singing out a bit.

But it, it was also I guess about e- encouraging the men to start to reflect on ourselves, our own behaviours and maybe, um, coming to an understanding of those behaviours and then beginning to change our life for the better, I guess. Yeah.

Kyra

And, and how, how did the men who got to hear the poem, how did they respond to it?

John

Uh, well, it's, um, quite interesting. I think the first time it was good because, um, men then began to jot down their memories ...

Kyra

Mm ...

John

and sh, and share them as well, you know? Um, you know, we're, we're told that there's, you know, it's always better to keep things quiet. It's always better to keep things hidden away or closeted or to be ashamed of, of, um, you know, who we are or, uh, and, and in whatever walk of life.

I guess remembering is, is a, is a, uh, is both a call-out and a, and a question in regards to that, that I think if we are to move, uh, forward as a, as a society, a, as a country with humanity, then we must remember, you know?

Kyra

Mm.

John

And, and, and we have to, um, take away those, those veils that tell us that we just need to pull up our socks and get over it, that that was what happened then, uh, it's all different now.

Um, and yet it's often that the trauma that would seek to halt our memories, still continues ...

Kyra

Mm ...

John

in one form or a- or a- or another, you know? And, I think the first, the first victim of, uh, colonisation or, um, oppression or of, um, aggressive power in any form, the first, um, assault is on memory.

Kyra

Yeah.

John

You know? You're, you're not who you are, you're not who you think you are, right? We will determine that, um, you know ...

Kyra

Yeah ...

John

uh, from, from constructs which are quite, um... Still don't quite understand, yet.

Kyra

There's a lot there, isn't there? There's a lot.

John

Um. I don't know if you wanted it to, to go there, but that's ...

Kyra

No, no, no.

I think that's, that's really, it's really powerful and it's, it's something that we need to, we need to remember as well, that that is, that is what can happen, and that's, that's, that is what does happen. Um, yeah.

[End of transcript]

Kyra Rose – host

So, we were chatting about how this enabled other people to open up and share their experiences, and it's a very specific audience that 'I Remember' is written for.

So, what led to its inclusion then in the Growing Up Aboriginal in Australia anthology?

John Hartley – writer

I think I'd seen a, um... Well, I must have, um, seen a, um, an expression or a call for interest, I guess.

Kyra

Mm.

John

And, uh, I thought, well... Um, and, and, and it was there. I mean, it was there for, um, some time. It's not as if I, I wrote it at that point.

Kyra

Mm.

John

But, um, I thought about it and of course you go through all your own little insecurities, right? And, um, and I, and I thought, 'Ah, well. I'll just, um, I'll tidy it up and send it off.' I never expected, um... because I, I know a lot, a lot of people across the country have

Kyra

Yeah ...

John

... quite amazing stories and experiences, you know?

But I, I, I never anticipated that, um, again. I, I guess I just sent it off and I thought, 'Oh, well. It's, it's there', and, uh, and it was quite surprising that, um, it was one of the pieces among the many that were, were chosen, you know? Yeah.

Kyra

Yeah. And have you, have you received similar responses to what you did when you initially shared the piece?

Have people written to you or communicated with you in some way about ...

John

Yeah.

Kyra

... the poem and what it's evoked for them and what it's, what it's led to them doing in terms of sharing their own stories?

John

Um, yes. I've had some people thank me and, uh, um... I mean, whether it's a, a poem or a song or, or whatever. I always liken them to like a, a newborn bird or something, right?

Like ...

Kyra

Yeah

John

... you, you, you give it wings, uh, you know, and breath and you go. You never know where it's gonna land, right? Yeah, so, uh, ever. So, uh, that's basically what I did. I just gave it a I, I had the opportunity, um, the Growing Up Aboriginal provided an opportunity in which, uh, the poem could, uh, have its wings and out it went, right?

So, but people have been, um, appreciative. Some people find it a bit, um, a bit hard. Um, particularly, you know, I, I used to perform it as a s- a spoken word with a, a, a didgeridoo or something behind it. And, um, th- it always seemed to go over quite well in performances. The performance, uh, people appreciated and, um, some would come up and thank me and, and things like that.

But, uh, I think, I mean, I don't keep track of it ... but I think, um, a number of people have read it and, and you fellas now, I mean, this is, uh, yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's pleasantly, um, surprising. And I th- uh, yeah, I think it's, uh, I think it's good. And I think we need to, all need to do a lot of remembering, right?

Kyra

Yeah.

John

Yeah.

Kyra

And what you were saying before about memory being one of the first things to be impacted, it's important. It's really important that we, we hold onto those.

[End of transcript]

Kyra Rose – host

So, the poem, and this is like a structural question about the poem now. I remember it isn't a poem that rhymes or has a particular verse or stanza structure to it. But,

John Hartley – writer

No.

Kyra

You've got the clear structure of the use of 'I remember' at the beginning of your sentences, and then the switch to 'I am' to begin sentences towards the end of the poem.

John

Yes.

Kyra

So, can you talk a little bit about why you chose that shift and to structure the poem in that way?

John

He he. It's about remembering. And ah, he, he, he, he.

Kyra

And coming into being and ...

John

Yeah, exactly, right.

Kyra

Yeah.

John

You know, too well, I guess I was thinking that that was the central point that I was wanting to drive home, right?

Kyra

Yep.

John

And, and you're right, it's that remember and, and coming into being, but maybe coming to an understanding

Kyra

Mm.

John

... through that memory of, 'Oh, oh, I am', right?

Kyra

Yeah.

John

And, uh, because we're told who we are and where we belong and everything else, right, by, by others, you know,

Kyra

Yeah.

John

... and, um, uh, based on a very central and I think narrow view. And so working 'I remember, I remember this, I remember, I remember', led me into, 'Oh, I am'. I, I, I, I freed meself of, uh, of the constructs, right.

[End of transcript]

Kyra Rose – host

Now the poem makes reference to some quite significant historical events including the 1967 referendum and the many challenges that you faced growing up Aboriginal in Australia.  So,

John Hartley – writer

Mm-hmm.

Kyra

Why do you think it's important for both Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal people to hear about Australian history from an Aboriginal perspective? And it taps into what we've just been talking about ... with the sharing of narratives and memory.

John

Yeah. Um, I, I think it's, I think it's about that, you know, and, uh, if we're sincere in our, in our remembering, uh, it doesn't, it, it doesn't take you to, um, a place of guilt or shame or blame, right?

Kyra

Mm.

John

And, um, because I think guilt and things like that are not overly, um, constructive and, and they don't move, right? Guilt just sits there and it doesn't move. And in order to go forward, we have to move, right?

Kyra

Yeah.

John

Yeah. And, and we have to listen to each other, you know? And if you're, if you're born in this country, then you come out of the story of this country, is how I ...

Kyra

Yeah

John

how I look at it. Yeah.

Kyra

Yeah. Everything that comes before contributes to who we are and who we become.

John

Yes. I mean, that's not rocket science, right?

Kyra

No.

John

Like it's ...

Kyra

It's not.

John

... but, but, um, but people will tell us that it's, we need to just forget and get on with things, right?

Kyra

Mm.

John

That we're all one big people, and we all have the, the same goal, and we all ... on and on it goes, right? But, but that's really not... Well, that's not my understanding or experience. And we can become entrapped in a central narrative that places certain power or power dynamics ... Generally speaking, um, with, uh, men or white men, right? And I, I don't think that's the story, right? You know, so I think we all, uh...

It's much more simple but m- much more complex than that. Yeah. Or the stereotypes of who I'm meant to be by, by others, you know. Yeah, so it, it took me... I went, 'No, I am Karranjal I'm Kuku Yalanji I am Bama. I'm, I'm not, you know, one-eighth, one-third. I'm...' So, I guess an ac- an acceptance as well, yeah.

Kyra

Yep, that ownership of, of who you are.

John

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, very much. Um, and, and that, um, the recognition, right?

Kyra

Mm.

John

And that, and that who you are is not just someone born in 1936, but in, in ... it's, it's someone that comes from a, a very ancient, uh, place and time, right? Yeah, so it's all those genetic and, I guess, uh, things we hold, uh, in our DNA, right?

Kyra

Mm.

John

Yeah.

Kyra

Was that quite an empowering experience?

John

Um, not so much. I guess the poem was maybe an expression of the experience. I think the, um, the process I went through was empowering. I mean, frightening, um ... scary and, um, but empowering. You know, it, it led me... I was, um, laying in a hospital bed and I had a, um, a visit, um, uh, some people may say a dream or a, a whatever, of two old men and they said, 'Boy, you've got to go back to your culture'.

And so from that time, I, uh ... it changed, I, I walked out of hospital a, a changed person.

Kyra

Yeah.

John

It's led me to visit many First Nations people, Canada, New Zealand, and, and across our country. Uh, and finally immersing myself in, in the, uh, lore and the culture of First Nations people because we were told that it didn't exist.

Kyra

Mm.

John

That it, it was gone. It was finished, right? And I don't think anything is gone and finished until the p- last person who holds it is gone, right? Yeah. And, and then the land itself, it still holds it, right?

Kyra

Mm.

John

It's all there. It's a, an ancient, ancient memory etched in stone. And that's why when we look at the country, we're, we're looking or remembering or being in a place of, uh, ancient memory.

And stone, it's almost, um, immutable. Almost, but, uh, yeah. I mean, country changes, but the story is the same, right?

Kyra

Yeah.

John

Yeah.

Kyra

John, thank you. That, that's beautiful. I, I love that. That ... I could I'd love to, I would actually love to sit and chat about it all day.

John

Um, a person the other day called me a chatterbox, and, um, it so happened a, another friend sent me an interview some time ago, and, um, where they were interviewing me about something, and, uh, I thought, 'Yeah, I'm a chatterbox'.

Kyra

And there is, there is nothing wrong with that at all. That is, I think, that is what you should be.

John, so it's been a pleasure to have you join us. Thank you for sharing your insights into I Remember. It's such a powerful piece of writing, and your writing process.

John

Thank you. It's been a real pleasure.

And, uh, I hope, um, that the young ears, um, are listening to it, that, um, uh, just to know that, uh, they are, they are okay, whoever they are, yeah, or will become. Yalada and Juma Nyajil .

Kyra

To our listeners, thank you for tuning in. If you liked today's episode, please subscribe to 'In Conversation with Writers', leave us a review, share with your friends.

You can also follow us on social media for updates and upcoming episodes. Until next time, keep exploring the world of words and ideas. This is your host signing off. We look forward to you joining us in our next episode.

[End of transcript]